[Photo: Used with permission of the Linux Foundation.]
Show notes:
Podcast:
- Brian Behlendorf [MP3 - 28:42]
Transcript:
Gordon
Haff: I'm particularly excited to have with me today Brian
Behlendorf, who is the executive director of the Hyperledger Foundation, but
also has a rather illustrious history in open source.
Many
people in this call probably know who you are, Brian, but could you give us the
Reader's Digest version, assuming talking Reader's Digest isn’t a complete
anachronism at this point.
Brian
Behlendorf: [laughs] I'm old enough to get the reference, but I'm
sure many people won't, so Brian
Behlendorf, as you mentioned, Executive Director of Hyperledger which is
actually part of the Linux Foundation.
The
Linux Foundation has its own illustrious history of...I've only joined it about
three years ago to do this project, but obviously it's been around since 2000
trying to serve the needs of the Linux ecosystem, both the developers and the
companies around it.
Then
starting about six, seven years ago expanding into a whole bunch of related
technology domains, cloud computing, software‑defined networking and with
Hyperledger blockchain technology.
My
background, I have done a bunch of different things, I'm perhaps most known for
being one of the cofounders of the Apache Project, which became the Apache
Software Foundation, then serving as its president for the first couple years.
That
was always a night gig. It was never a paid gig. As it's true for almost
everybody involved with Apache. It's an entirely volunteer gig.
My
day job has varied from starting one of the first website design companies
called Organic. Starting a company called CollabNet, which you could think of
as maybe GitHub, but perhaps two or three generations too early. [laughs]
We
did kick out the Subversion project and get that started up and brought that
over into Apache. I've also served as CTO for the World Economic Forum for a
couple years. That was based in Geneva. That was a very fun and very different
kind of organization.
I
worked in the White House for about a year, and then the Department of Health
and Human Services for a year. Mostly been either starting companies or working
for open source foundations in one form or another. Usually volunteer.
The
Linux Foundation is the first time I've actually worked for a paycheck for an
open source organization, and it's really fun, so lots of different things.
I
guess I put the first ad banner online and I've been apologizing ever since.
Please don't hold it against me. I've had a lot of fun in my career.
Gordon:
Brian, I tend to let the topics in these podcasts wander where they want
to go. I do try and stay somewhat centered in this new podcast as it intersects
the innovation and open source. To what degree did inventing new and better things
influence you early on with Apache versus user freedoms, having an alternative
to big vendors, and that kind of thing?
Brian:
The Internet culture in the 1990s was definitely one of...First off, most
people didn't know about it, didn't know what it was going to be. I think
there's, among people who are online, a real conviction that this is bigger
than AOL, this is bigger than CompuServe, this is bigger than telephones even.
This is something that will be the substrate for a society in the long term.
There
may have been different opinions on how quickly that would arrive, but probably
not that much difference of opinion on if it would arrive. There's this real
deep conviction that we're on to something and it was going to be big, but a
lot of concern at the same time because the desktop computing world at that
time was maybe 96 percent Microsoft Windows.
We
might have had a more beneficent view of technology companies at that moment.
We still thought of them as leading the fight for individual empowerment, the
whole Apple "Think Different" campaign. We kind of saw tech companies
as the good guys, so to speak.
I
think there was still a concern that, as the web grew, it would lose its
character and its soul as this kind of funky domain, very flat space,
supportive of freedoms of speech, freedoms of thought, freedoms of association
that were completely novel to us at the time, but now we take for granted or
even we have found weaponized against us. [laughs]
What
I think drove the founders of Apache early on was two things. One, a very pragmatic
base, I was working at Wired magazine building this web company, Organic, and
we simply needed a better web server, and iteratively improving upon the NCSA
web server was just easier and certainly a lot cheaper than buying Netscape's
commercial web server or thinking about IIS or any of the other commercial
options at the time.
There
is this pragmatic thing which was, this is just simpler. This feels easier.
It's nice to have other people out there who can review my code and work
together with, but none of us really wanted to be full‑time web server
developers. That seemed boring in a way. We were having much more fun building
cool websites.
The
second was this idealistic notion that tapped into that zeitgeist in the '90s
but it was a bit of, this is a printing press. We can help people publish their
own blogs, help people publish their own websites and get as much content
liberated as possible, and digitized as possible, by getting this out there.
That
was kind of the web movement, but, in particular, we felt it would be important
to make sure that the printing presses remained in the hands of the people.
That everybody could use this stuff for free, and that it didn't become a
single‑vendor web, the way that it felt like the desktop had kind of collapsed
to a single vendor.
That
dual mentality, the pragmatic and the idealistic, I think was a driver for
Apache. I don't know that there was a same kind of driver for the Free Software
Foundation. That was more Stallman's moral, the indignity of having his code
proprietarized in the mid '80s and going, "Never again."
I'm
certainly sympathetic to the moral worldview, that when you have software
inside of every car, every doorknob, every thermostat, that pretty soon access
to source code, and the ability to modify it, starts verge on a human right.
I
totally get that worldview. I think there were more pragmatic and more
operational kind of benefits that were key to Apache growing, and I'd say
arguably the rest of the open source world. I carry that forward to today.
With
Hyperledger, one thing that pulled me in and got me excited, was this notion
that there are some really important problems we can solve with distributed
systems, with distributed Ledgers, and smart contract techniques.
It
wasn't programmable money, it wasn't regulatory arbitrage. It wasn't many of
the things people associate with crypto currencies that was the driver here. It
was the sense that the digitalization of society had led to a future that
looked a lot more like big central systems.
Everyone
loves to make fun of them but Uber and PayPal and that sort of thing ‑‑ not
that they're the boogeyman, necessarily ‑‑ but like that architecture of all of
us going through central services to connect with each other. It was a very un‑Internet
kind of worldview, but it seemed to be the trend line we were on.
Blockchain
technology seemed urgent to get involved in that lined up with these idealistic
and pragmatic impulses that I've had, and I think other people in open source
have had. That's kind of why I've dedicated the last three years of my life to
it.
Gordon:
I will talk more about Blockchain in just a second, but right before that
I'd like to talk a little bit about foundations. Foundations are a big thing
these days in the open‑source world. Some will argue maybe they're too big a
thing in the open source world.
What
was your thinking with the Apache Software Foundation initially, in terms of
what your priorities were, and how you've seen the foundation landscape evolve
over the years?
Brian:
In 1998, Apache had been around for three years. In those three years, it
had grown by ‑‑ Netcraft, the company that does this survey of the web once a
month ‑‑ Netcraft's measure to be something like 70 percent market share.
Which
seems weird to use air quotes around market share, because no one was paying
any money for Apache, but in terms of installed base, that's 70 percent of the
web is running on top of Apache HTTPD, which was pretty awesome.
It
was still being built by a group of people whose only connection to each other
was that they were all on an email mailing list. All had commit to a CVS
repository. All had shell on a Unix box that I maintained off of Wired's
Internet connection, [laughs] and otherwise had no formalism between us.
In
a way that was liberating, in a way, we were like, "Yeah, you know, we
don't need overhead, we don't need stuffy bureaucrats." We do want
process, and we had developed kind of a sense of how to work together, because
we want the efficiency that comes from not having to rehash the same arguments
over and over.
Having
lack of clarity about who does what. It was fundamentally about transparency
and an open door to anybody to get involved in. I think there was a healthy
degree of skepticism that a foundation, or any sort of corporate structure,
would have the same advantage.
Certainly,
we didn't want to incorporate as a for‑profit company, because then you get
into thorny questions of, "How much do you pay people? How much equity
share do they have?" all that kind of stuff when we all had our own
agendas and startup businesses anyways. It was when we started seeing more and
more people using it, asking harder and harder questions.
We'd
always defer to other people to provide support. There were these thorny
questions around, "What happens if somebody who owned a patent decided to
file a patent lawsuit against the developers of Apache and wanted something as
simple and modest as a dollar per copy?"
If
they won, and given patent laws, they certainly could win, they'd seek those
tens, or hundreds of millions of dollars from the Apache developers. For that
crime of giving away free software, we could lose our homes. There was no
corporate shield to protect the activities of the developers involved in
Apache.
If
somebody said, "I've got a patent claim against something, and you have to
remove it." The laws are the laws. We might fight it if we felt it was a
weak patent. If it wasn't a weak patent then what else can you do?
Without
any sort of corporate shield around our activities, we all stood the risk of
losing our homes or losing financial cushions or other things that just would
have sucked.
That
was one motivation creating it. The second was, the project had grown beyond
being just about the web server. Pretty early on, there is a module to do Perl,
a module to do Java, Tomcat which was a Jakarta kind of...We're coming in these
where whole new Java code bases.
Coming
from Sun and other participants asking to get involved in a way that causes us
to ask, "What are we really doing that's scalable?" or, "Have we
tapped into something here?" or, "Beyond the individual heroics of
the people involved, is there something repeatable that's worth trying to take
to more and more software projects?"
The
answer was kind of yes. I didn't think we were too full of ourselves to say we
had actually found something that was a happy medium between the idealism of
the free software movement, and the pragmatism of getting code built and then
embedded inside of large companies' projects.
In
fact, we didn't even mind the idea of somebody like a Microsoft or an IBM or a
Sun ingesting our code and putting it into their commercial products, as long
as they didn't abuse our brand by calling it Apache plus plus or Apache prime
or anything like that, as long as they didn't try to shuffle their support
request queue just down upon us.
As
long as they followed the license we were actually enthusiastic about the idea
of those vendors coming in on the presumption that it would mean additional
development resources, as well. That it would help the idealistic side.
If
you could really get not just the rebels and the indie operators, but the
actual establishment to use open‑source code then maybe you get faster to a
world where everybody's got printing presses, everybody has that freedoms that
we all consider essential.
When
thinking about this, we realized that having some sort of corporate structure
around us, that was nonprofit in nature… That was benign, beneficent,
universally recognized as a way to be protective, rather than exploitative
would be the right thing.
That's
where started forming as a 501(c)(3) charity made sense, and forming it
specifically as something that was very much a membership‑based organization.
That's not the only way to do it. There are other approaches.
The
Linux Foundation for one is more of an industrial consortium than a membership‑based
charity. Mozilla also is a charity, the Mozilla Foundation, but it also does
most of its operations through a for‑profit wholly‑owned subsidiary called the
Mozilla Corporation.
There's
all these different models out there. It's been great to see those grow. In
general, if you're doing anything meaningful in open‑source software your
activities should be parked somewhere where there is a protective structure
around it that helps answer the questions and the needs of the broader‑user
community.
I'm
pretty happy with that approach, also happy at the same time to see quite a few
foundations out there and new ones showing up overtime.
Gordon:
I do still want to get to blockchain and open source, but as a way of
getting there as we fast‑forward today. The Hyperledger Foundation, you've
mentioned it, I'm obviously very familiar with it just having been in Tokyo
with you. Can you tell our listeners what it is and what its goals are? Because
I think there is sometimes some confusion there.
Brian:
Three years ago, I jumped on this project. It had been announced actually
about six months earlier, like December 2015. The first code drop was February
2016. I joined it in May of 2016.
Hyperledger
was announced at a time when the Ethereum community was just getting launched
as well, when Bitcoin was just before its big run‑up in price, when there was a
lot of excitement in the blockchain and cryptocurrency space.
The
emergence of a set of use cases beyond programmable money that can jump across
borders easily. That really started to speak to some things that were much
harder to otherwise do. I think the one that pulled me in was land titles and
emerging markets.
Where
a distributed database that was not just “Here is a master MySQL node and
slaves that hang off of it,” was not just a multi multi-write kind of system,
but one that actually supported consensus, one that actually had the network
enforcing rules about valid transactions versus invalid transactions. One that
was programmable, with smart contracts on top.
This
started to make sense to me, and was something that was appealing to me in a
way that financial instruments and proof-of-work was not. Hyperledger was
announced by a set of large companies, along with the Linux Foundation to try
to research this space further, and try to figure out the enterprise
applications of these technologies.
What's
possible and start, let's start coming up with code that would meet those
needs. Let's think about, what are the different architectures required. It was
bootstrapped with a couple of different pieces of code that came, one piece
internally that had been developed by IBM and other that have been internally
developed at Intel.
When
I came in, I said, "We should try to decide do we want to be about a
single architecture?" kind of in the way that the Linux kernel is about a
single architecture. "Do we want to be about a basically a portfolio
approach of different architectures, different approaches, to threading this
needle, to solving these use cases, and let the market decide?"
Over
time, if we have multiple winning solutions, we just kind of weaved them
together in some The community came back and said, "We want the
latter." From that point forward, the mission of Hyperledger has been, be
a home for a portfolio of technologies of software that implements distributed
ledger and smart contract functionality.
Kind
of like Apache we have an open door to new projects coming in. Have a more of a
thematic focus on this domain. Put more intentional effort into weaving these
solutions together over the course of time. That's what Hyperledger is.
Sometimes
it can seem confusing, because we have right now 14 different technology
initiatives, some of them very mature, like Hyperledger Fabric. Some of them
still emerging and starting to use in production environments like Sawtooth and
Iroha and Indy and Burrow.
Some
of them just very supportive as tooling, like Explorer and Composer, and some
of them still very young. It's the portfolio overall that is the Hyperledger
community that's the Hyperledger code‑base.
Actually
innovative open‑source community has this spectrum of different technologies
under their wing. It's, I think, ultimately, the right approach.
Our
goal, long‑term, is if anyone is building distributed ledger systems, they're
probably using one or more, or perhaps all [laughs] of the technologies coming
up from Hyperledger.
Gordon:
I was at the event run by "The Economist" magazine a little
while back. At that event's keynote, there was this distinction drawn by
invention in the sense of new technology, na ew open‑source project, for
example.
Innovation
is something broader that can involve things like collaboration, new practices,
new types of ecosystems, and so forth. My observation would be that blockchain,
of course, does require technology but also requires a lot of that latter type
of innovation.
Brian:
Open‑source software has shown that you can't really separate the code
from the people behind it and you can't really separate the code from the
zeitgeist of its movement. Today, whether we trust using Linux, Apache or any
of these pieces, sometimes it just comes from pure market share. If everyone
else is using it, then it can't suck too badly.
For
that first wave of users and the early adopters to later adopters, knowing that
there is individuals and organizations committed to a body of code is pretty
important to deciding whether to use it or not. A software product isn't just
some fixed point of flag‑in‑the‑ground that says, "Here's where we are.
Get used to it." Software is more like a stream.
You
might decide to use a version of software based not just on what it does today,
but on its likelihood of meeting your needs in the future. You'd probably do.
When
people look at using code, they want to see that there is this active community
around it that is making regular software releases, that is pushing forward on
something ambitious, but also answering the very pragmatic and prosaic needs of
its end‑users, that has this this vector to it, that has this this momentum.
There
are lots of companies out there that are today actually building their own
products and services on top of Hyperledger Fabric and other pieces of
Hyperledger. Showing people that there is this living, breathing core to these
projects, this fountain of functionality and bug fixes, and how they can plug
into that, is essential to getting that broader adoption.
We
think it's equally important to be innovative in terms of new features as it is
to actually be showing here's the community processes, and being an open‑source
project actually lends to itself to better quality code and to real people's
needs being met and the entire market place actually being effectively
deserved.
Gordon:
Of course, if we talk about blockchains specifically, it is also
interesting that these permissioned distributed ledger systems need these new
ecosystems of companies cooperating and working together and giving up some
level of ownership really, and there's lot of good lessons from open source
generally in why you have to do that and how you can benefit from doing that.
Brian:
That's right. Certainly one of these blockchains that works, that people
are setting up, for them to actually have any point to using blockchain
technology wants them to be decentralized at some point. They want them to not
just be based at a single vendor's cloud to maybe want to actually have nodes
that are on different clouds.
Probably
also nodes that are being run by different technology partners or even in some
cases nodes being run by end‑user organizations themselves, because otherwise,
why not just use a central database run by a single vendor or a single
technology partner.
We've
been trying to do a lot to work with the cloud community. Right now, there are
pretty much every major cloud provider offers Fabric as a managed service which
was a nice little milestone to hit this past year.
In
doing that, it helped us establish Fabric as standard in the space, but it's
also important that when you bootstrap a Fabric network that on day one, you're
able to add nodes from other cloud providers or other places.
We
are running a certification process for cloud providers this year that will
help to guarantee to end users that degree of decentralization, that degree of
flexibility around the deployment, because we think that's important to get out
there.
Really,
this is just the network services equivalent of the same degree of
transposability and flexibility and anti‑vendor lock‑in that people expect when
they use open source solutions, as well. It requires the same degree of
thinking amongst the technology vendors of how do I reassure my customers that
I'm not going to trap them in something vendor specific.
Yet,
I will still be able to sell them some additional value that keeps them as a
customer. Something that Red Hat has been extremely good at in the last 20
years. That Red Hat has been in existence at 25 years at this point and I think
they are certainly a big part of what Red Hat will be bringing to IBM. It's
something that every IT vendor, every enterprise software vendor, has to get
really good at in this era.
Gordon:
One last topic I'd like to touch on. We look at blockchain generally,
essentially everything is open source. We're seeing this in other places, too.
Cloud Native Computing Foundation, also under the Linux Foundation, pretty much
has all of the innovation happening in Cloud Native Computing, at least all the
innovation outside of the big cloud providers, but then they're using the
software internally.
What
do you think the characteristics of these new ecosystems are, these new
combinations of technologies, and projects, and companies, that are so defined
by open source. There's not just an open‑source alternative to proprietary
software, but really everything happening in those spaces being open source.
Why has this happened?
Brian:
I first want us to be cognizant that it might feel like open source has
won. [laughs] It might feel like Linux has won. That Apache has won. Linux is
still not the dominant operative system out there.
It
may be by device. If you count lots of IoT devices running embedded Linux, but
the mobile phone market and the laptop computer market, and others that are
still very rife with proprietary software, which is fine.
You
might take the moral point of view like Stallman does, that it is a problem. Or
you can take the pragmatic point of view, which says as long as we have
critical mass, then an open‑source solution is likely to emerge and is likely
to provide benefits.
It's
been very reassuring to see that argument playing out, not just in operating
systems and web servers and databases, but now playing out at the level of...or
cloud containerizations, which is where Kubernetes and the Cloud Native
Computer Foundation has really set its mark.
Increasingly
in machine learning, in AI tools, increasingly in fields as conservative as
automotive, or Telco, open‑source options have started to become at the very
least industry competitive in the same way Linux is industry competitive.
In
some cases just as dominant as say Kubernetes is now with cloud containers.
That doesn't mean that Tesla is going to wake up one day and open source all of
their automated driving software, or their end‑user interfaces. Nor do I think
that's necessarily a goal for anyone, except Tesla car hackers, and the Tesla
user community I think would love that.
If
Tesla were to use more the Automotive Grade Linux as a project at the Linux
Foundation for their software for underlying communications bus with third‑party
part suppliers, more of the nav system and voice control stuff that AGL is
emerging with, that would certainly complement what I'm sure is a ton of other
open‑source software that Tesla is already using inside their vehicles.
Maybe
make it cheaper for Tesla, maybe as a result, make it so Tesla cars are less
expensive, and other electric vehicles are less expensive. At the end of the
day I think this is about companies deciding there are things that are simply
table stakes.
Things
that we all need to do to be able to be in this industry together. It's much
more efficient for us to work on those common bits of plumbing, so that we can
spend more money, or balance more of our investment at the levels above that,
and creating stuff that is truly feature full for end users and differentiated.
I
think it's an entirely rationale, non‑idealistic business argument for why
we're seeing more and more companies, even the ones we traditionally associated
with very proprietary business models, be it Microsoft, be it Uber, be it
Facebook, actually recognizing open‑source is strategically interesting to
them.
That
feels like this continuation of the same thinking on our minds 20 years ago at
the Apache Software Foundation, that hey if we just involve some of these
parties in our projects and kept to our core principles of how to build
software, of how our licenses work, how our dev processes work publicly.
If
we made them play by our rules, we may still end up in a much better place and
move further faster. I think that's been the story the last 20 years.
